Gay Marriage Questions

The Mother on Thu, 28th May 2009 7:33 am 



Marriage, as we practice it today, is an antiquated position anyway.

No serious cultural anthropologist or evolutionary psychologist will tell you that monogamy is a normal human state. The evolutionary pressures just don’t work that way.

Marriage was designed almost entirely to make certain that the female didn’t screw around. It’s a male domination thing. That we have quietly turned into a religion thing, for the same reasons.

(I’ve been married for over 25 years. Just because it worked for us, not because of societal pressures).

So it seems to me that the next evolutionary step in this social construct that we call “marriage” should be to allow anyone to submit themselves to it.

The real question is, why are some people so massively opposed? Their answer, that it decreases the sanctity of marriage, is actually quite correct–for them.

Religious folks have a very hard time with anything that questions their faith. Their absolute faith in marriage vows is a religious thing, and now society is telling them that it isn’t what they thought. It shakes their value system and their religion to the core.

(As does the whole question of homosexuality to begin with. Start trying to explain to rabid Christians that homosexuality is natural, innate and practiced in primates, and you’ll get an ear full of young Earth woo, followed by the same old tired screed about unforgivable sin.)

The world, it is a-changin’. But some folks will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming.

The Mother’s last blog post..Circumcision, Anyone?

queen of all on Thu, 28th May 2009 7:21 pm 



I’m really hoping someone with a religious standpoint can come on here and help me understand their point of view and why it offends them so much. Cause I’m not surprised we have the same view of letting everyone get married. lol

Chrissy on Fri, 29th May 2009 5:09 pm 



You and I stand on this point relatively the same. I am not religious, I am spiritual, I embrace people or turn them away for who they are NOT their race, religion or sexual orientation…it’s just that simple to me now.

I wonder if any of the types of people who would protest against these propositions for gay marriage would like to comment here as well, the ones who say gays will go to hell. I am pretty fluent in the bible and don’t see where it states that. I am curious to understand there judgment call on that.

For the record for your readers I am heterosexual married almost 16 years.

I will be subscribing to these comments, because I am quite interested in the same answers that you are:) A touchy subject…thought out well and written very sensitively.

Chrissy’s last blog post..My pity party, cry if I want too!

queen of all on Fri, 29th May 2009 9:11 pm 



Thank you Chrissy. Believe me, this was not the post I originally was ready to do. I waited a day and let my Irish/Native Blood simmer on down. lmao

But truly, I’m looking for some info. I don’t really expect to get it because I probably already pissed people off with my blog enough that they don’t want to follow. But really, I hope you will post some information and your views. But like I said, be prepared to back things up. I may not believe in organized religion, but it doesn’t mean I’m ignorant about it

Twitted by mvchrissy on Sat, 30th May 2009 2:38 pm 

[...] This post was Twitted by mvchrissy – Real-url.org [...]

Heather on Sat, 30th May 2009 6:12 pm 



I’m just going to post my comment without reading others, lol. I want to have a clear head, and not post in anger. Coming from a Christian persepective – God CREATED marriage as in the book of Genesis.

Christians do feel homosexuality is sexual sin, and it also says in the Bible that ALL sin is equal. So I really don’t care for all the hate that a lot of people express towards gay/lesbians because as all Christians SHOULD know we are all sinners, and their sin is no less sin than the next person.

Is marriage more than a piece of paper – yes. However I think most people are afraid that if we allow marriage to happen between gay/lesbians then it would be compromising the principles this country was founded on, AND it will also be rejecting God’s word and God’s command.

Since the BEGINNING OF TIME marriage has ALWAYS been between one man and one woman. Now we want to change this law/command according to OUR desires and OUR wants?

I can’t answer the question as to why civil union isn’t good enough. They would receive the same rights as a married couple, etc.

Being gay/lesbian is a unique lifestyle and I think calls for unique rules, laws, and therefore a civil union. I think most people want it to be “married” so that they don’t “feel” different, guilty, or ashamed. They want to be treated “like everyone else” – well history shows homosexuality is not like ‘everyone else.’

I’m not trying to be mean – just trying tell it like I see it.

queen of all on Sat, 30th May 2009 7:22 pm 



Heather, thank you so much for replying, you know I respect your opinion even though we differ so much. However, I don’t think we really do differ on this. Because the wording civil union doesn’t seem to bother you either. I need to go pull up our state marriage certificate and see how it’s worded now. lol

Just a quick comment about the uniqueness aspect. This is where as a country it’s so different by area. Here on the west coast, it is not a unique lifestyle. We (as a rule) are VERY used to gays/lesbians everywhere in our daily lives. Yes, of course there are still many issues with hate, but unfortunately there will always be evil filled with hate. Goodness, I still here many racist comments here in the logging town I live in. ( I love to tell them I’m a card carrying tribal member and see their face fall and their embarrassment for being such horses-asses) Ok, easy for me to get side-tracked. Gay marriage or civil union, that is the topic

Heather I appreciate your matter of fact handling of the post. BUT, I truly want to know how YOU and others feel personally beyond the rhetoric. I know the “church’s” position, but I would like to hear from people instead. Again, I think I hear that you are not opposed to a civil union, just not a marriage? Please do correct me if that is wrong

Chris on Sat, 30th May 2009 10:06 pm 



Having lived my whole life in a Christian household (both my parents are clergy), I would offer a counterpoint to Heather’s assertion about what ‘Christians’ believe.

Simply put, not all Christians believe as Heather do. Certain translations of the bible, along with literalistic interpretations can provide support for this view. Other translations, interpreting the bible as theology, not history, say otherwise. Assertions of what ‘Christians believe’ as legitimising a particular viewpoint are disingenuous at best, as there are so many different views held by Christians that almost the only thing all agree on is the existence of Jesus – and even then, the nature of Christ is a matter of great contention.

Some Christians oppose gay marriage. Other Christians support it. Those who support it do so in pursuit of Jesus’ commandment to ‘do unto others…’, a sentiment that in more modern terms can be expressed as ‘live and let live’. The reservation of judgement for God and God alone is also key in the support of – or at least non-opposition to – gay marriage.

That “history shows homosexuality” is different, with the implication that this is somehow justification for continued discrimination, is a logical fallacy. The same logic could be applied to, and justify the continuation of: slavery; segregation; anti-Semitism; oppression of women; and even the ‘divine right’ of kings.

The assertion that marriage has always been between one man and one woman is incorrect, as the bible itself makes many mentions of biblical patriarchs engaging in polygamy.

Nor is the assertion that gay marriage compromises the principles upon which the United States were founded accurate: there is no special place for Christianity within the constitution. Many of its authors were very specific in their writing to say that this was to ensure the religious beliefs of one group would not be forced upon any other.

In fact, Jesus himself said nothing about homosexuality, whereas he did promote the concept of separation of church and state in Matthew 22:21 – “Render unto Caesar…” – and similarly in John 18:36.

alphabitch on Sun, 31st May 2009 7:18 pm 



I can’t speak to why people are sooo threatened by gay marriage, but I can speak to the reason people aren’t going to be satisfied with civil unions. As I told someone in a comment on my blog, “…having “marriage” for some people and ‘civil unions’ for others? That’s like having separate water fountains for blacks and whites. Even if the two fountains are of equal quality and cleanliness, it’s still a slap in the face.”

alphabitch’s last blog post..So, what about YOUR marriage, HMMMM???

queen of all on Sun, 31st May 2009 7:45 pm 



Oh I can definitely agree with it being the same for everyone. I would be referring to changing it to a civil union for everyone and then marriage happens in the church, nothing to do with the paper or the government.

Thanks for posting your comments!

Chris on Sun, 31st May 2009 7:52 pm 



I believe that was actually one of the key elements of the Reformation. Marriage was to be split into two elements – the civil or legal aspect of it, and the religious aspect, neither of which had any bearing on the other. Along with various other attempts to sever the church’s domination over civil life.

That it’s mostly (ostensibly) protestant denominations who are the most vocally opposed to gay marriage (and church interference in government generally) is kinda sad. And moderately ironic.

queen of all on Mon, 1st Jun 2009 7:12 am 



I think since there was never a true separation of church and state as there was supposed to be, that it left too many gray area’s. I know Alpha Bitch posted a great vid about it.

People need to remember that it used to be illegal for African Americans to get married just because people thought it was morally wrong.

Chris on Mon, 1st Jun 2009 8:07 am 



Regarding people thinking inter-racial marriage was morally wrong, that’s what I was getting at with “The same logic could be applied to, and justify the continuation of: slavery; segregation; anti-Semitism; oppression of women; and even the ‘divine right’ of kings.”

That’s basically a paraphrase of one of my favourite quotes regarding the bible:

“Texts from the source we call Holy Scripture have been used in the past to defend the divine right of kings and to oppose the Magna Carta; to condemn Galileo and to assert that the sun does indeed rotate around the earth; to justify slavery, segregation and apartheid; to keep women from being educated, entering the professions, voting or being ordained; to justify war, to persecute and kill Jews; to condemn other world religions; and to continue the oppression and rejection of gay and lesbian people.”

Realising that I’m straying slightly from your initial hope, voiced in the first comment, I shall do my best to provide an answer. Not being of the mindset, I can’t tell you personally, but I believe – from various interactions with those who are of said mindset – that one of the major objections is that by not preventing what they see as sin, they are in effect condoning it. This is the most common argument I’ve encountered as to why it is personally affecting people (that observers would consider it not to affect); the idea that if they allow America to be overrun by sin, then God will destroy America for its sins. The problem with that argument being that God spared the righteous when destroying Sodom and Gomorrah (and the other three that unfairly get ignored), and wouldn’t have even done the destroying if the five cities had had more than one righteous guy between them.

I’ve also heard various suggestions that it will somehow be of detriment to the world generally in relation to the second coming. Given that even the churches that believe in the second coming can’t agree on even the faintest details, there’s ideas ranging from gay marriage hastening the second coming (which some see as bad); delaying the second coming (which others see as bad); leaving a black mark on the CVs of the righteous whenever the second coming happens (obviously bad).

There are also those who feel that it is their duty to do everything that they can to prevent the spread of sin throughout the world. They oppose gay marriage out of a (misguided in my view) desire to protect people from sin, and help them be worthy of entry to heaven.

For me, those reasons (which are all I can think of at this ungodly, other-side-of-the-world time) seem to be predicated on the assumption that one can be punished for the deeds of another, and that one has the right to force one’s belief on another. This seems utterly contrary to the idea of natural justice, and I’d always been under the impression that God was supposed to be a Just God. So colour me perplexed.

Chrissy on Fri, 5th Jun 2009 9:52 pm 



I have to appreciate the way Chris has so eloquently shared thoughts on this subject..highlighted so much, covering many belief systems, I rather enjoyed reading Chris’s thoughts.

This is a very touchy subject and I think most of these post took care in what they wrote and commented honestly and fairly, respecting val’s request to keep it none argumentative.

Have to thank val for the courage to take on such a controversial post…you truly embraced it with regard to all sides! Good job!

Chrissy’s last blog post..Tesing my Blockquote

Chris on Fri, 5th Jun 2009 10:38 pm 



Chris on Fri, 5th Jun 2009 10:44 pm 



Hmm, post about my eloquence followed by an apparently blank post from me. That went well.

What I actually meant was:

(preen)

(/preen)

But with diamond brackets that of course didn’t show up…

queen of all on Sat, 6th Jun 2009 9:41 am 



I too appreciate the conversation that’s been going on here. Not much against gay marriages or civil unions, but I guess with my following that’s not a real surprise. lol

Heather knew I’d protect her from any bashing and that’s why she had the courage to get over here

Tell us what you're thinking...
and oh, if you want a pic to show with your comment, go get a gravatar!

Name (required)

Email Address (required)

Website

Speak your mind

Hey, I wanna know more. Email me more comments.